I recently got into a debate with my sister about fornication vs homosexuality. It’s an argument that I’ve had before, and I had in mind to write a post about it, but put it off. Well, today’s passionate discussion rekindled that flame in me. I think this is something we really need to explore and get right, so that people do not remain confused and on the fence about the whole issue of sexual immorality. I would really appreciate your thoughts too, so please read and comment below.
Now, I’m sure you’re wondering what sexual immorality has to do with petty thieves and armed robbers! Well my point is that both the petty thief and the armed robber are THIEVES and they are both heading to the same place, if they do not repent. In the same way, both fornication and homosexuality are sexually immorality and will face the same judgment from God!
I’m sure many of you would like to object, and emphasis that homosexuality is much worse. The way I see it, the difference is but a speck. The homosexual fornicates the same as the heterosexual. However, the heterosexual feels superior to the homosexual…in the same way that the petty thief thinks he’s a better person than the armed robber.
The problem with the petty thief is that he has convinced himself that what he does is NOT THAT BAD. He doesn’t think he’s hurting anyone. He might even feel justified because he’s poor and has mouths to feed. If he shoplifts from a store, it wouldn’t stop him from joining the community as they condemn the armed robbers who burgled the same store after him. But all he will be is a self-righteous hypocrite!
The armed robber may get caught, and go to jail for his crimes. He will not be able to deny that his thievery was wrong, because he stands publicly disgraced. But the petty thief rests secure in that his deeds are hidden, and he too lies to himself.
I personally feel it is easier for the armed robber to repent and be saved, than the petty thief, who may never see a need to confess until he stands before God. And for this reason alone, I think all the petty thieves stand in graver danger. Consider what Jesus said about the Pharisee and the Tax Collector (Luke 18:10-14).
The fact is that the armed robber is worse than the petty thief. By law, they cannot receive the same treatment, because the armed robber uses force, steals things of great value and endangers lives. Homosexuality is worse because, not only is it fornication, it is an active rebellion against God and His Law, and a perversion of His order. The point of this post is not to say that one is okay and one is wrong, but that BOTH ARE WRONG, and when addressing homosexuality, we have to address the fact that the Church is behaving like a big hypocrite because we put up with fornication. It is no wonder we have little or no defense against homosexuality!
How can a homosexual feel bad for fornicating, when he is judged by fornicating heterosexual hypocrites??? You say he is a perversion and he says you are self-righteous! The only way to show that the issue being addressed is sexual immorality is for us not to normalise ANY form of sexual immorality.
One of the points my sister raised was that fornicating Christians at least go to Church and ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again. But that’s SOME! For a lot of Christians (by religion, not faith) who are fornicating, it is a lifestyle that they have no plans on changing! In fact, going to Church and seeking forgiveness is such a bother, they probably don’t do it anymore. They know they’ll be ‘going to the club tonight’ and ‘getting down to business later’, so why pretend? Many are proudly professing being Christian and sexually active outside marriage that trying to suggest abstinence is a laughing matter (Read ACT LIKE A LADY, THINK LIKE A MAN (UFUOMAEE’S CRITIQUE))!
How is this different from what is happening with homosexuality? It is also an alternative lifestyle from True Christianity! And believe it or not, there are still those few gay people in the Church who are going there to confess and repent. But pretty soon, neither heterosexual fornicator nor homosexual fornicator will bother with such frustrating rituals!
We need to get back to basics and teach ABSTINENCE (Celibacy until marriage) FOR ALL! And yes, God’s way – between a man and a woman. Let’s show the gay community that the Church means business when it says NO SEXUAL IMMORALITY, and that this is not a cultural, but a spiritual concept with great significance. So absolutely no thievery is allowed, whether petty or armed. Let it not even be named among you. Are we on the same page?
PS: This post sparked a Facebook discussion with an Atheist, and resulted in the post HOW IS MY SEX LIFE ANY OF YOUR CONCERN?
Latest posts by Ufuomaee (see all)
- What is the Greater Evil, Poverty or Crime? - August 24, 2017
- An Eye For An Eye: A Critical Discussion - April 16, 2017
- The Hard Road To Forgiveness - March 26, 2017
Od
Read it on your blog, Ufuoma. Thought it was exceptional then. Still think it is.
Ufuomaee
Thanks Od!!! Thanks for being first to comment too 🙂
Mariann
I think you are right. A sin is a sin, there isn’t a big or small one. you don’t judge others by saying their sin is bigger than yours and therefore they deserve more punishment than you.
I agree that fornication, or having sex before marriage is a sin, as much as i believe that constant confessions in church is a mere waste of time, especially since you know at the back of your mind that you will do it again.
However i do not agree that Homosexuality is a sin. No one decides on what their sexual preference should be. No one wakes up one day and says, u know what i’m going to be gay or a lesbian, just the same way heterosexuals don’t decide to be that way. it happens to you. Its what i call the human default setting. The law of attraction does not say that you choose who you are attracted to, it doesn’t say why you are attracted to such person, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are attracted to such person.
“How can a homosexual feel bad for fornicating, when he is judged by fornicating heterosexual hypocrites???” What happens when the Homosexual doesn’t fornicate but is a good devout christian, or Muslim or just a good person generally? should he still be judged for his preferences? Your article simply states that a homosexual will be judged no matter what. he is judged if he fornicates, and he is judged for being who he is even if he doesn’t fornicate. so it doesn’t really matter.
This is not the same as with an armed robber. An Armed robber can repent tomorrow and never steal again, in fact he can get a good job and own companies and never steal again….. what would be the flip side for the homosexual? he would change his preference and be straight?
The way i see it, going by your article, the Homosexual is condemned whether he fornicates or not. That i do no agree with
Ufuomaee
Hi Mariann,
I really appreciate how you expressed your points clearly and dealt with each matter. You are right that I did not address the issue of homosexuals who do not fornicate. I was addressing fornication, sexual immorality by heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. This post is not about sexual identity but sexual immorality.
However, to address your point, you make a good point. There are people who were homosexual, but when they came to Christ, their sexual identity did not change…rather, they submitted their sexual behaviour to God, acknowledging His righteous standard for sexual relations only in marriage, and only in marriage between a man and a woman.
Recognising this, having already died to themselves and forsaken all things for God (including their sexual conduct), they made a decision to be celibate and to be eunuchs…for the sake of the gospel. It is a similar situation that perhaps a divorcee might have to consider, because the Bible tells us to not divorce, and to be open to reconciliation. They too may have to be celibate indefinitely. The truth is Christians do re-marrry, and I wrote about that in another post. The Bible is not rigid against remarriage.
As much as you feel that homosexuality is one of those misunderstood concepts in the Bible, much like how women were oppressed by culture and it filtered into religion, the prohibition against homosexuality is not based on cultural oppression. I personally do not believe people are born gay. I think we all explore our sexuality as children, and at these times we don’t receive proper guidance because ‘sex’ is taboo. Many children learn about sexual practice from their friends and what they watch and some of these tendencies are reinforced through socialisation and discipline (or lack of at home).
There is also evidence that suggests that boys are being turned gay by molestation in childhood, and this is a strategic effort by those who are heavily pushing the gay agenda. I also believe that more children are professing to be gay now because it is becoming more acceptable, even cool, not because they were born that way. There are so many that think they are gay, who later think they are bisexual, who later realise they have been straight all along. It is purely sexual confusion, and that is what happens when uninhibited sex is treated as the most exciting thing in the world, and given no boundaries.
I don’t know it all…but a Christian who is struggling with homosexual thoughts and tendencies should submit first to God by not fornicating, and focus on doing God’s will rather than gratifying the flesh (the same as every other Christian). Nobody will judge such a Christian. God is in the business of transforming us in every way, and we all have our battles. If we submit ourselves to Him, our desires soon reflect His will, and they will be granted to us.
I don’t know if that was helpful in anyway…
Olayinka
People don’t just get that sexuality is not a choice. If it was, some people will choose not to experience sexual attraction at all. Priests who take celibacy vows will have no problem with keeping off sexual thoughts. Nobody decided that they will only be attracted sexually to women or men. That’s something you cannot help. It just happens. But you surely can decide which man or woman you want to end up with but not choose the one you want to have sexual attractions for. Just like how you cannot stop yourself from growing breasts as a woman. Well, except you cut them off sha. Which straight person can explain how they came about to be straight?
Od
Olayinka, I’m not sure if you are arguing that having homosexual desires is not a choice or that carrying out homosexual practices is not a choice. Which is it?
Olayinka
My argument is that having homosexual desire is not a choice. Just as how you being straight was not your decision. You just became self aware that you had sexual attraction to the opposite sex. If you’re straight.
Od
We are all tempted, Olayinka. Temptation is not a choice. Finding yourself wanting to sleep with someone of the same gender as you is the same as finding yourself wanting to sleep with someone of different gender from you. It’s no more than a suggestion. The choice is you going ahead to or avoiding getting into a position where you could sleep with that someone.
The difference lies here: you shouldn’t be wanting to sleep with someone of the same gender as you. If you have such desires it means that something is wrong with your system, whether physiologically or psychologically. You can worry God about fixing it since his claim is that he built us himself.
But just having desires is not a choice anyone makes. What is is what you do about them.
Ufuomaee
I disagree that homosexuality is not a choice, because “if it was they would choose not to be”. That’s not true at all.
There is such a thing as rebellion, as much as we don’t want to label every homosexual as a deviant. They may not be intentionally so…but my point it, society breeds more deviant behaviour through acceptance and through the push of those who would like their deviant lifestyle made acceptable. And many do so by molesting children, so that those children grow up with sexual confusion…
So I suspect there are many more victims than rebels, and I think that many are misguided sexually…and I also believe that many have a wicked agenda full stop. Because not all have an evil agenda, we feel sympathetic for the cause, but we have to realise that it is actually an organised rebellion against God and the family.
If you don’t believe in God, we are not likely to agree on this. These are my views and I own them and I have a right to them. Thanks!
Olatunji
While I believe that no one was born homosexual, I think you need to do more research. Do a survey or something. I like your spiritual stance on homosexuality. However, I think it is a little too hasty to say “homosexuality is not a choice”. Some children get abused at a very very very young age by the same sex and this slowly develops into homosexuality because the Pandora’s box was opened and once that happens, it cannot be closed. How about people who are even older and get raped by the same sex? No matter how they try to resist the feelings of attraction to the same sex, it still remains. The aforementioned scenarios are different from the scenarios where mere advances are made by the same sex and they give in or when they intentionally want to explore the homosexual terrain.
What am I saying in essence? Homosexuality is not always a choice. It depends on the circumstances of origination. However, is having consensual homosexual sex a choice? Oh, of course it is.
Having the feelings and practicing the sin are not the same things.
S
i couldn’t have said this better than you did Yinka….. I am opposed to several things in this post but i cannot just sit and explain why
FEMME
No higher wrong, if its Wrong, it is wrong! QED.
Ufuomaee
True dat!
Tessa Doghor
Homosexualism is a sin
The fornicators never say that they are not sinning.
Ufuomaee
Hi Tessa, there are many professing Christians now who would claim that they are not sinning by having consensual sex outside marriage… They think they Bible is outdated culturally… Of course, we know they are deceiving themselves, but we shouldn’t deny that they exist.
Cheers, Ufuoma.
Nedoux
@ Tessa, “never” is such an absolute word. It makes you sound so certain of how fornicators’ minds work.
LanrayBadmon
Buuuuchit..#IMO who’s you to judge even though I judged you
K. Rukia
TNC, we need a dislike button.
thetoolsman
lol.. considering how long it took Facebook to consider it, err… we’ll see about that….
K. Rukia
Take your time. As you consider, I’ll just start commenting ‘disliked!’ or ‘liked!’ for the time being. 🙂
S
AMEN TO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
K. Rukia
You know!!!
kierkedaark
So, for those who have homosexual inclinations, they should remain celibate and never feel sexual pleasure because of some thing they can’t control? And since masturbation is outlawed, too, they’re pretty screwed, aren’t they? Do you think that’s fair? I think you’d have a very different opinion if you were gay or had same-sex attractions.
It’s a rare person that would choose years of struggle. I’m sure many of them would turn the switch off if they could just to have peace of mind. Peace of mind the church probably took away in the first place?
I think Vicky Beeching’s story might help provide context.
Ufuomaee
Yes, it seems unfair to me. Just like it is unfair that some people live their whole lives never seeing the Sun! Or some live their whole lives with disability that prevents them from engaging in sexual relations, or even finding a romantic mate in the first place. We each have our crosses to bear, some are more than others…but when we come under Christ, we are all equal. The one who is homosexual does not have the liberty to fornicate while the others have to wait for marriage. It is across the board.
Thanks for commenting 🙂
kierkedaark
Just realized I didn’t include a link.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/vicky-beeching-star-of-the-christian-rock-scene-im-gay-god-loves-me-just-the-way-i-am-9667566.html
Ufuomaee
Hi Kierk,
I followed the link and read the account. It is really sad, and I can see that it was not something she wanted for herself either.
I don’t know how to explain homosexuality. I guess it doesn’t help that I am not one. Have I ever thought a woman was attractive before? Yes! I think we all have. I actually think women’s bodies are more beautiful than men. Women always check out other women before they check out men… we say it is to check out the competition, but I also think it’s because women are just more attractive. Have I ever felt a pull to other women before, because of their strong personality or warmth? Yes, I have too. But I’ve never entertained any romantic or sexual thoughts, because I have also been attracted to men, and desirous of their attention and affection. Men turn me on. Well, my husband does.
People, mainly gays, keep saying it is not about the sex or the gender of the person they are attracted to, but about the person themselves! That’s awesome. I know that is true because I love being around smart, beautiful women. I love their personality. What would be wrong would be for me to desire more than friendship with those of the same sex. There are also beautiful people of the opposite sex, who we can be attracted to and love passionately. If we seek them out, we will find them, but if we conclude that we are gay because people of the same sex are equally or more attractive to us, we are perverting an honest attraction to beauty.
I think one difference between me and women who become lesbians is probably the overfocusing on their attraction to other women as abnormal…and also the giving in to the temptation to do more than appreciate their beauty but engage in sexual acts with them. I can’t say I understand it much, but I know what God says about it, and I still believe (even though it didn’t happen for her), that God can deliver someone from their homosexual tendencies. Homosexuality is not normal, it is not innate, it is like cancer, because it is a malfunction of our cells. I firmly believe can be cured by the power of God or by therapy… and if it hasn’t worked for some, maybe faith and expertise are lacking.
Olayinka
“There is also evidence that suggests that boys are being turned gay by molestation in childhood, and this is a strategic effort by those who are heavily pushing the gay agenda. I also believe that more children are professing to be gay now because it is becoming more acceptable, even cool, not because they were born that way.”
Are you aware that there are fathers in slums sleeping with their sons steadily? A woman came out recently and sought for help from the public. The poor 4 year old is so traumatized that he wasn’t speaking at that time. I don’t know of now. Is that father part of that agenda by whoever you think is pushing the gay agenda? Gay agenda? What is that? Please step outside your opinions and your unfounded evidence and read more about homosexuality. Outside what religion teaches you and what you think it is. I know you are knowledge loving. Please.
Ufuomaee
Hi Olayinka,
I don’t know how your point disproves or disparages mine. A father sleeping with his son is not just a pedophile but is a homosexual predator! And what you cited is far more common than people think. I wish I had the literature at hand to show you, but there is at least one account I can reference on my blog, where the lady who shared her story had inside information into this ‘gay agenda’.
Read http://ufuomaee.com/2015/07/25/the-story-of-moira-greyland-guest-post/
Olayinka
When you said young boys are molested at tender ages to make them become homosexual in order to push for the gay agenda, I had to ask if the fathers and uncles raping their boys are part of the agenda. It would seem that you meant that all those pedophiles and sexual predators were commissioned to homosexualize those young men by the gay agenda pushers.
Ufuomaee
I don’t know what would motivate a father to molest his own child or an uncle to molest his niece or nephew. But certainly, those people are not role models in anyway, even if no one had commissioned them to perform those acts. They are being used the devil to propogate evil…and yes, there are many of them who do so because they think the world would be a better place if children were just as available as adults for sex, and everyone could have a great big orgy. You shouldn’t be so surprised at that! Aren’t there people who are already campaigning for animals to be part of their sexual activities? These people are not operating from a place of soundness by depravity and corruption.
Olayinka
So I read that article. I have to say that the author’s story is very sad. Going through that in the hands of her own parents. Horrible.
But from what I understand in that article, despite the sick attempts by her father to confuse her, she seemed to be aware that she was not gay. Her father raping her to me didn’t show how homosexuality was responsible.
Besides, are you saying you are not aware that there are straight men who love sex with only female children? Fathers who are daily being reported in the dailies of sleeping constantly with their daughters for so long. Way more than we hear of such abuse coming from gay people. Way more. So should we also say that the problem with these perverts is their straightness? (Hope that’s an acceptable word).
Ufuomaee
Thanks for reading the article Olayinka. I do feel for the lady, though she didn’t write for sympathy. Reading her account, she wasn’t the only victim at her Father’s hands. Did you not read about his many boytoys who he molested..?
Sex offenders, whether homosexual or heterosexual are perverted and they operate by the same spirit of depravity. I can’t claim to understand their motivations. But what I do know is that depravity breeds depravity…they will continue to get worse… It isn’t sexual satisfaction they want…I doubt they are ever satisfied. It is corruption and wickedness; it is hatred at its core, masquerading as love.
Like I was saying, not everyone has a gay agenda to propagate, but there are certainly many who do, and we can’t deny their existence, just to defend the rights of others. It is because of them that the many more people are claiming to be gay these days, so their strategy is effective. All they need to do is question God’s standard, and those who want will take the bait, just like Eve did in the garden.
Funmi O
I like the fact that we’re seeing more religious posts on the site. Good post, Ufuoma. I disagree with your points but I respect your anti-hypocrisy stance, which is the number 1 problem I have with Abrahamic religions in general.
Ufuomaee
Hi Funmi, thanks! I appreciate your contribution, even though we don’t see eye to eye on everything.
PAAL
Is masturbation fornication?
Ufuomaee
Hi Paal, that’s a good question. It’s a matter of conscience I think. I’ve always felt that masturbation was wrong, but was part of a group that practiced it. They were all celebate and they said that was the only outlet for sexual expression. I went ahead with it, until God convicted me against my actions with this verse: “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones” (Rom 1:26). If you think of the dildos and sex toys women use to replace the penis, you will know that this is referring to masturbation, not just lesbianism.
I also know that depravity has no end…it doesn’t satisfy and gets more and more depraved the more you try to satisfy it. Kind of like pornography. Seems innocent at first, until you are unable to be stimulated by the simple stuff and have to go hard core and then progress to other grades of depravity. Those who desire holiness will be able to enjoy sex as it was designed…they will be satisfied to use their bodies as God ordained, and not for depraved acts.
Asabe
Thanks Ufomaee. I do like the points you have raised in this article. It’s unfortunate that many people including Christians do not see it as a sin. They have glorified and magnified it But it’s just a sin that can be washed away by the blood just like any other sin. This message needs to be preached in churches because if homosexuality was something that they really totally couldn’t help how come we have people who were homosexual for many years but have come out of it now? Homosexuality is a sin just like other sins and my belief as a Christian is that it can be washed by the blood.
Ufuomaee
Thanks Asabe! I totally agree 🙂
Victoria
In case some of us may be interested in checking if there is such a thing as an ex-gay we can look at the stories of people like Roy Simmons and Mark Ellis.
Ufuomaee
Thanks for that contribution, Victoria 🙂
Chiebuka
Good job on the post. Your writing is easy to follow and you convey your points with passion. Well done. I agree with the general message of your post which encourages the church to drop the hypocrisy. (that’s the point, right?)
“Homosexuality is worse because, not only is it fornication, it is an active rebellion against God and His Law, and a perversion of His order. ”
I disagree with this comment for one reason, but I will ask you to explain to me; how is homosexuality an active rebellion against God and a perversion of his order any more than fornication is?
Ufuomaee
I appreciate your kind response, and disagreement too. I don’t think I can do a better job in answering your question than Sammy has done below. Please scroll down and read what he wrote.
It is clear for all of us to see what is natural and acceptable in nature, and we who believe God made us male and female for good reason, to procreate and to build strong families and communities, are able to see that homosexuality is not only against marriage but against the family. Plus God has commanded us not to practice such. Sex was ordained for both sexes to engage in together, under the protection and security of marriage.
K. Rukia
Did he though? Did God ever actually say that we should not have sex with people of the same gender?
Ufuomaee
Hi Rukia,
I’ve read the twisted article you sent on the matter. There’s no point telling you whether or not God said it, because you’ve got your own translation for every reference to homosexuality in the Bible.
But you know, you do sound like the serpent in the garden that asked Eve, “did God really say not to eat from that tree?”
I know what God said about homosexuality, and I know you know it too.
Cheers, Ufuoma.
K. Rukia
If I knew, I wouldn’t ask. As far as I know from my Christian days, God never said ‘thou shall not have sex with people of the same sex’. And as far as I know, all Old Testament laws were superseded by the New Testament/New Covenant heralded by Jesus, who only gave 2 commandments: ‘love God’ and ‘love your neighbour as yourself’. I fail to see how having sex with someone of the same sex transgresses loving God or loving neighbour.
Chiebuka
Unfortunately, I do not agree with his response as a reason for homosexuality being a more grave sin than fornication. Basically because I do not think of homosexuality as unnatural to the people who practise it. They did not choose that orientation and therefore it is natural to them. The Vicky Beeching story fully illustrates my point.
Well done on the article.
Sparks and Tingles
Fornicators are not blatantly asking to be accepted by the society. While I agree that fornication is a sin, I believe homosexuality is a mental disorder. It is a matter of time before pedophiles and necromancers would start asking for the same attention given to gays.
Ufuomaee
While you are right, there would be no need for heterosexuals who fornicate to ask to be accepted by society, because it is the norm. Homosexuals do so, because it is not the norm.
I certainly agree that homosexuals and others you have mentioned are suffering from a mental disorder with varying degrees. I wrote more about that here: http://ufuomaee.com/2016/02/25/reprobate-minds/
K. Rukia
Why do you believe that homosexuals are suffering from a mental disorder but not fornicators?
Ufuomaee
Hi Rukia,
If we are talking about homosexuality, not the practice of it, but the feelings that lead to the practice, then yes…I think it is a disorder of sorts. The practice of it is also fornication, and that is simply disobedience, like I have said in my post. They are both sexually immoral.
The desire to sleep with someone of the same sex, rather than the opposite sex is perverse, and is a result of a rebellious spirit against God. Even if it is not a mental disorder, it is still wrong, just as it would be wrong for a woman or a man to entertain feelings and desires for a married person! The person they are craving is out of limits to them, but unfortunately, that is what is exciting them…the forbidden fruit. I suspect that is also the spirit behind homosexuality, bestiality and other perversions… They desire them because God said not to! It’s wicked and disobedient, and in its most sincere form, it is simply carnal and foolish.
Sure, we can’t always help who we fancy. We might not know that someone is unavailable to us until we have already developed feelings for them…but with homosexuality…you already know that the person is of the wrong sex from the get go. If you are always and only attracted to what you can not and should not have, don’t you think you have a mental problem?
Cheers, Ufuoma.
Od
Ufuoma, James 1:13-15 says that the enticement of our own desires and passions is what temptation is. Even though homosexual desires are perverse, their initial existence may not be the product of any conscious choice the person having them has made and without choice, there is no sin. The person involved has to actively stoke the fires of his or her desires and brood over them before you can consider the existence of those desires themselves sin. Because it is that brooding that results in sin. Otherwise, the existence of those desires should be the cause of prayer asking God for the healing of the mind, just like you said, not for repentance since the person may not have chosen such desires in the first place. As for the possibility of not choosing such desires, we know that abuse in childhood can predispose people to all kinds of behavior. They are thus victims rather than perpetrators unless they reject the opportunity for healing when it is offered to them.
Ufuomaee
Hi Od, thanks for your comment. I understand what you are saying, and the difference between temptation and sin. Even still, I think there is a thin line between having a thought enter your mind unannouced and entertaining it for a while before kicking it to the curb. Even when ungodly thoughts enter my mind, I can repent of them… I can rebuke them. If they persist in coming, then we have to address the spirit that is causing such recurring thoughts and deal with the spirit, not just the thought when it comes.
Sin doesn’t necessary begin with action. Jesus said if we lust after someone who is not a spouse in our heart, we are sinning. So only God knows to what extent someone is sinning, and to what extent they are dealing with temptation. My comment was about lusting and giving in to temptation by fornication (whether adulterous or homosexual).
Cheers, Ufuoma.
Chiebuka
Homosexuals ( in the West) are not asking to be accepted because they want their lifestyle to be a norm. Homosexuality will never be a norm (most likely). Their reasons go deeper than just social acceptance. In the west, married couples have special rights and benefits which are not accorded to people who are just (dating); rights that are not in place in our own society. In a way, the homosexual movement is like the civil rights movement from that point of view.
In Nigeria, there are no special rights, therefore the homosexual movement is. as you say, one for social acceptance. Look what that got them.
S
Homosexuality is not a mental disorder.
Homosexuality is the the CONSENTING AND CONSENSUAL relationship between two adults of the same sex.
Pedophilia isn’t just a mental disorder, it’s also a crime. To forcefully engage a child who cannot bare the responsibility or understand the gravity of sex, into sexual relations is not right and will most likely never be.
Not really sure where you were going to with necromancers though, they have nothing to do with sex.
K. Rukia
Lol! I think Sparkie meant necrophiles.
Sparks and Tingles
Thank you, you are right. Let’s blame that on sleep and autocorrect.
Sparks and Tingles
Oh! I mean necrophiles.
Consent does not make it right. If I connive with a friend to kidnap my dad, does my consent mean that I have done something right? This is the same way pedophiles or their apologists would say “At least pedophiles do it with a child of the opposite sex, I don’t know what gay people are doing”. I do not have this stance cos of my religious inclination, I am actually irreligious but I know homosexuality is against natural design.
K. Rukia
Sparks I think you’re confusing things. If you kidnap your father, is it with his consent? The word kidnap implies that the victim did not go willingly, so there is no consent involved.
As for pedophilia and children of the opposite sex, what does that have to do with consent???
S
You lost me at using kidnapping your dad as an example for consent.
Did your dad agree to be kidnapped?
pretty sure the answer is No….
Sparks and Tingles
My analogy failed to drive home the point, lets do away with it…hehe.
What I was trying to say is, “S” thinks homosexuality doesn’t qualify as a mental disorder because it involves two consenting adults. My focus isn’t the consent, it is the action – what they have consented to do together. Homosexuality, like bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, sexual sadism, coprophilia and masochism, is a deviant behaviour.
K. Rukia
I see what you mean now. But the fact that something is “deviant behaviour”, i.e. ‘departs from usual or accepted standards’, does not mean that it is a sign of a mental disorder. For example, the practising of Christianity was once regarded as deviant behaviour. Women reading novels was once regarded as deviant behaviour. That you feel something is abnormal, weird or disgusting does not make it wrong. Have you considered that perhaps you just don’t understand it?
K. Rukia
They are not “blatantly asking”, they are demanding, because they deserve equal rights just like everybody else.
Od
Ok. So where are we drawing the line on rights, Rukia?
Homosexuals deserve rights. And you have asked what makes bestiality wrong before. There are beginning to be questions about what makes paedophilia wrong to. Incest is gray-ish too. Necrophilia is up for questioning. So if everybody deserves rights, everyone who practises these things deserves rights too.
Now, why restrict the rights activism to sex. Why is murder wrong? What makes slavery wrong? Why is stealing wrong?
Where do we draw the line on rights and decide what can be allowed or disallowed in human society? And why?
Sparks and Tingles
@od You are spot-on.This is exactly my line of reasoning.
@k-rukia Maybe I will never understand, I have tried, I have tried hard. It just doesn’t make sense.
K. Rukia
If you’d really like to understand, maybe I can help with that. Let me know and I’ll give you my email.
Sparks and Tingles
Thank you K. Rukia.
I think I am incapable of understanding something I find very yucky. But to satisfy my curiosity, please mail me on samscolobogin@yahoo.co.uk
K. Rukia
Where do we draw the line on rights? When the rights of another are infringed upon. As I always say, consent is key.
Why is murder wrong? No consent. What makes slavery wrong? No consent. Why is stealing wrong? No consent.
Ufuomaee
Hi Rukia,
Consent doesn’t stand alone… consent goes hand in hand with legitimacy. A ten year old can consent to sex with a 30 year old man, but is that legitimate? Legitimacy is what we trying to deal with here. Is it legitimate for men to sleep with men? The Bible says no. And it is also illegitimate for unmarried people to sleep with each other, or for a single person to sleep with a married person. That is why there is such a thing as illegitimate children, because we understand the concept of legitimacy. Unfortunately, the world and the Church are unable to agree on what is legitimate, hence our problem.
Cheers, Ufuoma.
Od
Then I would have to ask you how to definitively define everyone’s rights and under what circumstances they are infringed upon. Because if it was as simple as you said it, justice wouldn’t be the pain it often is.
About consent, if a 62 year old managed to get your 6 year old daughter to consent to sex, would it be wrong?
Mariann
I think the line should be drawn where the said action affects another person positively or negatively.
If two adults of the same sex decide to be together, who does it harm, is there any mental or physical harm resulting from their actions to another person? if the answer is no, please let them be. its just like a lady allowing anal penetration, some of us consider it gross, but the only person whose anus gets wider is the lady so na she sabi.
as it relates to being a pedophile, incest, murder, slavery or stealing, you cannot even begin to compare. first you have no consent, or uninformed consent, and the law is broken and lots of innocent people are harmed in the process.
Please answer this simple question, how does a person being homosexual affect or harm you in anyway?
I think people’s preferences as long as it is within the ambit of the law should be allowed. Bible says, thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, that shall not covert another man’s wife, thou shall not commit adultery and the rest of it and more importantly love thy neighbor as thyself.
I think as a people we have a way of criticizing things we do not understand just because it doesn’t fit in with what we call the norm.
BEING A HOMOSEXUAL IS NOT A DISEASE, ITS NOT A MENTAL ILLNESS THAT BE CURED. ITS NOT A NEW SEXUAL ADVENTURE THAT PEOPLE JUST DECIDED TO TRY OUT FOR THE FUN OF IT. If you don’t understand it just waka pass and let them be.
K. Rukia
Thank you!!!
Ufuomaee
Hi Mariann, by another person being affected, do you mean a third party, or one of the two consenting parties? It is because of a comment like yours, that I went on to publish, How Is My Sex Life Any Of Your Concern? I invite you to read it, if you haven’t already. http://ufuomaee.com/2014/09/29/how-is-my-sex-life-any-of-your-concern/
The fact is, it is never simply between the two consenting parties. Sex is a powerful act that God restricted to marriage for the sake of protecting not just the two consenting parties, but the society at large… so that people wouldn’t have children out of wedlock dealing with so many of issues our children are facing these day…so that people won’t transmit sexual diseases that will plague the world and kill children too, that people won’t be forced to commit abortion because of their careless, ill-advised sexual adventures! Sex is definitely everyone’s business, because the impact is astronomical. We can’t simply leave it to condoms and pills to prevent problems, because we want to have fun. Those don’t even address the emotional impact of sex on those who engage in it without the security of marriage! We need to be much more responsible and accountable than that.
Cheers, Ufuoma.
Sammy
I will like to begin my philosophical argument against homosexuality from a scientific and medical point of view before moving on to religious and moral standards to avoid feelings of sentiment or being bias. I really hope it helps the reader to come to a clearer view of sexuality.
The human sexuality from a scientific point of view is undisputed with respect to the sexual structure of both gender. While the male possess the penis, the female has a vagina observed to be fully structured for the function of sexual intercourse. When a woman becomes sexually aroused, the labia minora become swollen and puffy, which causes salt water to push through the vaginal walls and provide lubrication. In addition, the Bartholin’s glands at the vagina’s entrance produce lubrication. In the case of the man, the penis is filled with blood and becomes turgid for penetration. This natural process of lubrication of the vaginal clearly depicts it’s natural use for sexual intercourse. Infact, the entire anatomy of the female vagina and the male penis is a major evidence for hetereosexuality.
Let us now consider homosexuality in men. In this case, the female vagina is absent and an alternative means must be adopted if sexual intercourse is to take place. The only replacement are the mouth and the anus.
Statistically, an estimated 90% of men who have sex with men engage in receptive anal intercourse. Anal intercourse or sex involves inserting the penis into the anus. People engaging in anal intercourse are exposed to additional health risks because unlike the vagina, the anus is full of nerve endings, making it very sensitive and lacks natural lubrication. There are a number of health risks with anal sex, and anal intercourse is the riskiest form of sexual activity for several reasons, including the following:
1. The anus was designed to hold in feces. The anus is surrounded with a ring-like muscle, called the anal sphincter, which tightens after we defecate. When the muscle is tight, anal penetration can be painful and difficult. Repetitive anal sex may lead to weakening of the anal sphincter, making it difficult to hold in feces until you can get to the toilet.
Even though serious injury from anal sex is not common, it can occur. Bleeding after anal sex could be due to a hemorrhoid or tear, or something more serious such as a perforation (hole) in the colon. This is a dangerous problem that requires immediate medical attention.
2. The anus lacks the natural lubrication the vagina has.Penetration can tear the tissue inside the anus, allowing bacteria and viruses to enter the bloodstream. This can result in the spread of sexually transmitted infections including HIV. Studies have suggested that anal exposure to HIV poses 30 times more risk for the receptive partner than vaginal exposure. Exposure to the human papillomavirus (HPV) may also lead to the development of anal warts and anal cancer. Using lubricants can help some, but doesn’t completely prevent tearing.
3. The anus is full of bacteria. Even if both partners do not have a sexually-transmitted infection or disease, bacteria normally in the anus can potentially infect the giving partner.
The act of oral sex is not also left out as it has been implicated in throat cancer by American Cancer Society Chief Medical Officer Otis Brawley, MD. In summary, from a scientific, biological and medical point of view hetereosexual intercourse is the preferred means by nature. Other means require certain unnatural practices which comes with additional penalties and risk. The best prevention is for both heterosexuals and homosexuals to abstain from such act.
Now let us turn to religion and moral standards. The claim of modern civilization that homosexuality is a normative behaviour that should be allowed because people can have sexual attraction for a person of same sex creates a major philosophical problem. How do we refute people that claim to have sexual attraction for children? or for animals? or cadaver? Where exactly should we draw the boundary so that everyone is sexually satisfied? This is where religion takes a difficult moral stand, that of hetereosexuality and nothing less.
Ufuomaee
A round of applause!!! I thoroughly enjoyed that. I don’t know why we can’t just accept the obvious.
Olayinka
From this very insightful expository you gave, it would seem that homosexuality is not the problem. Because anal sex is not exclusive to homosexual couples alone.Heterosexual couples also indulge in it. The thing about sex and sexuality in regards to all the controversy surrounding it is that it is complicated. So i is wrong for two adults of the same sex to fall in love but it is ok for a 25 year old woman to fall in love with a 70 year old man? Or a 26 year old man marrying a 72 year old woman? Do these relationships look compatible or normal? Or should we say that once the sex is heterosexual, the fact that a man is sleeping with his daughter is ok? Or that the rape of an 80 year old nun is more acceptable as long as it’s a man who is raping her?
I really cannot connect pedophilia or necromancy to homosexuality because there are heterosexual rapists, necromancers and pedophiles as well as homosexual ones too. So equating sex between two consenting adults with criminal acts is perplexing for me.
K. Rukia
This scientific/medical argument against same-sex relationships can be made against a host of other things that might be considered ‘unnatural’, but are widely accepted. For example,
+ a woman past menopause technically should not be having sex because the semen that would be deposited inside her would be useless; her body no longer produces eggs
+ sick people technically should not take medicine, and children should not be given vaccines, because disease is nature’s way of culling the less resilient members of a population
+ people technically should not be kissing because it is an unncecessary “health risk”; it’s an extremely unhygenic activity, allows for transmission of disease and adds nothing to the act of sex itself
…and so on, and so forth.
In summary, from a scientific, biological and medical point of view we should also abstain from post-menopausal sex, treating illness, kissing, and a million other things that are unscientific.
S
I respect your views but i have a counter to all the points listed,
Anal sex isn’t restricted to homosexual relationships alone…..this is something that alot of people seem to ignore.
1. Yes, the anus was designed for ‘shit’ purposes but parts of the body have multiple functions…
2. The anus may lack natural lubrication but there are ways around this. Mind you, even the vagina could develop a hard time getting lubricated. There are anal tears yes…. but also vaginal scarring and tears too.
3. all the infections you mentioned as regarding to anal sex exist with vaginal sex too and can be prevented by the use of a latex/condom.
and finally…..
AIN’T NOTHING WRONG WITH ORAL SEX!!!!!!!!! .
DEJIDOPE
Basically
1 Corinthians 6:9 says Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Ufuomaee
Thanks for sharing 🙂
K. Rukia
Deji, I think you should read this: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ashford01.htm
It’s the first part of 4 part essay that talks about how the biblical passages typically used to condemn same sex relationships are actually not talking about same sex relationships. The Bible is often misinterpreted, and the case of homosexuality is one of those.
And if you’re going to quote a passage from the Bible that says homosexuality is immoral, maybe look for something where God actually said so. Paul wrote and said a lot of things that were simply based on his opinion and the historical context at the time (e.g. he also disapproved of men with long hair, 1 Corinthians 11:14). Are Christians living according to an old Jewish man’s opinion from 2000 years ago, or trying to live like Christ?
Ufuomaee
Hi Rukia,
I read the post you shared. What an absolute different perspective. I think it won’t be long, until we have a GAY Bible, which doesn’t condemn homosexuality (meaning loving sexual relationship between people of the same sex).
The post needs an edit, because only one of the verses quoted to say that ‘the reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was because of their greed and wickedness (in general, not in regards to homosexual practices)’ was actually talking about Sodom and Gomorrah’s greed. The rest were simply added to give the impression that there were multiple references, which there were not.
It is a wonder what we can make something say, as long as that is what we want to believe.
Cheers, Ufuoma.
K. Rukia
Lol. Ufuoma. You’ve come again with your typing of many words and saying nothing. I need to meet you in real life.
You haven’t said anything to refute what the article asserted. You’ve only pointed out that “the post needs an edit” and whined about a gay Bible. Were Sodom and Gomorrah really destroyed because God was displeased with their gayness? You’ve said nothing about this.
Ufuomaee
Yes, I believe their sexual perversions was one of the many reasons Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. I hope I have answered your question.
Sparks and Tingles
Meet her in real-life so that you can beat her up till she really says something, right? Hehehe.
K. Rukia
Replying here because I’ve exceeded the reply limit.
I’m pursuing this because I used to believe, like you, that God destroyed S & G because the people in those cities were gay. But I changed my mind when presented with a different interpretation of that story and found that my initial understanding of it didn’t hold water. I’m always open to changing my mind, so I’m curious to know how you see it. Specifically what aspect of the story tells us what the reason for destroying S&G was?
Od
What was the interpretation you got that changed your mind?
Od
What I find more interesting than that salad of incredulities that I just read in that link is how willing you are to embrace that interpretation while condemning other interpretations as misinterpretations.
About the link…isn’t it very telling that to use the Bible to validate homosexuality Ashford had to invalidate the Bible itself?
According to Ashford, nothing ordinarily thought to be said against homosexuality is really meant to condemn it in the Bible. But wherever you find something actually said against it, you can’t believe it because, in the case of Leviticus, it’s absurd and, in the case of Paul’s writings, it is unclear or unreliable because a man’s ideas and opinions. That’s incredibly like cherry-picking, taking just what appeals to you or suits your argument and discrediting what doesn’t.
It would have been far more credible if Ashford had just unilaterally attacked the Bible as an unreliable dictator of human behavior. What he tried to do is what the Bible itself calls, “breaking the Scriptures”. He tried to pit the Bible against itself and that ruse only works when the audience does not know the Bible.
The argument for the Bible’s authenticity and accuracy is that it was entirely authored and arranged by God using the agency of men. Thus, you cannot say that Leviticus is ridiculous but Genesis is right…if you read it a particular way. You cannot say that Paul was writing his own opinions and thus you can ignore him but you can take everything Jesus is reported to say. The Bible stands and falls as a single document. Ripping one part of it out invalidates the entire document. So, Ashford’s effort was dead on arrival. Either the Bible condemns homosexuality or it does not. It cannot both do so and not do so.
dré
I think you’re amazing!
“For productive conversations across faiths and philosophies, it is wise to try to understand and accept the limits of one’s knowledge of the faith or philosophy one is addressing.”
^^^That was the first thing that got me when I started noticing your comments.
…and I think it’s pretty amazing you still make attempts to reply, argue, explain or say anything at all when it’s pretty much clear those you engage most times have little or no idea at all what aspect of your faith they seek to address(read: discredit).
It’s always a pleasure reading from you.
Od
You’re very kind, thank you. It’s the business of evangelism. It’s our job to challenge and answer challenges. Who knows who may hear and turn around? And when we are done, we have been no more than unprofitable servants who have given back to God no more than he himself gave to us at first. 🙂
Jag
WTF?
Is this still TNC???
thetoolsman
Yup, it sure is.. And just like everyone else you’re welcome to contribute…
Sheri
God bless you for this post. It’s important for people who are walking with Christ to come across articles like this, as it is also good to pull people who aren’t walking with Christ, towards him too.
I was sexually active but I was not happy being so, I struggled to get right with God, and it took me a lot to break through. Though I was sexually active I could never talk about it openly. I knew it wasn’t right, it wasn’t something I could openly boast of. I honestly don’t know how we feel so comfortable fornicating? Have small fear na Lol. Yesterday a popular social media ‘mogul’ posted a picture on this same matter of Sex and how it should be done. Lo and behold, see comments pouring like never before, in the 100’s. Girls and guys talking about the delights of Sex, (Fornication), and laughing openly. I’m not judging, I’m just bewildered. How have we made it okay? Just curious.
Ufuomaee
Brilliant contribution dear! Thanks for joining the conversation. We have made it okay, because we have believed the world rather than God. In the same way, soon, the Church will bend on homosexuality, just as the government has… It is only a matter of time. We want too much to be accepted by the world, to be an approved institution, thinking we can bring more people to Christ by watering down our message. But like Jesus says, salt with no savor is fit for nothing but to be thrown out!
Butterflymind
Well, I like the TNC that allows for religious liberty and that people are actually paying attention to it 🙂
Good post, Ufuoma. I agrees with you.
Ufuomaee
Thanks Butterfly 🙂 I appreciate your comment!
Ufuomaee
Thanks Butterfly 🙂 I appreciate your comment!
Ni_nie
There was a time when fornication was the big demon, then came homosexuality rendering fornication a normalcy. But the world is fast evolving and if Christians and the Church doesn’t stand firm on its teachings against Sexual immorality, the new big demon ‘Trans-gender’ will take over and Homosexuality will become the new normalcy.
Ufuomaee
I think that Trans-gender ship has sailed… It appears the latest thing contending for normalcy is bestiality! May God help us – and the animals – all!
Syca
Looks like I’m late. Better late than never. Lol.
In addition to @sammy’s argument about homosexuality being unnatural, see this link that talks about homosexuality not being genetic http://www.hollanddavis.com/?p=3647.
Interesting conversation though
Ufuomaee
Thanks for sharing! Nice one 🙂
Vincii
Hmm… Most of you need the holyspirit…. For renewal of your minds and for everything.
I don’t blame some of you. Romans 1:17-32
Enjoy!
K. Rukia
You’re like the worst brand of Christian there is. Self-righteously sprinkling judgement and condescension on people under the guise of sprinkling holy water. I used to be like you so I know your type. Check yourself. Is this something Jesus would say? Smh.
Od
Is he now. How come you get to decide that?
Actually, yes, it very much is. In fact, he did say that. You need only read his conversations with and denunciations of the Sanhedrin to see for yourself. Look for the phrase “brood of vipers” and “hypocrites”. You’ll find pretty hardcore stuff there.
K. Rukia
I didn’t decide anything, Od. It’s just my opinion.
Thanks for pointing that out, I forgot about that part of the Gospels.
Ufuomaee
LOL Vincii 🙂
jude
I just want to ask three questions from this so called Christians who have come to believe that being gay or otherwise is a sexual preference… 1…was any of them born by same sex….2….what does the BIBLE that they claim to believe say about such lifestyle 3…..as it ever occur to them that this not sexual preference but some demons operating….
K. Rukia
I’m not one of these Christians you speak of, but I’ll reply you anyway because I have time.
1. No, obviously not. What’s your point? That the only reason people have sex is to have children?
2. The Bible says a lot of things that you have chosen to ignore, e.g. one of Moses’ laws (supposedly communicated to him by Yahweh) was that we should not eat rabbit meat.
3. Has it ever occurred to you that the internet is actually operated by demons?
Od
You really should have stopped at “I’m not one of these Christians”. What you did was hijack an inquiry that was literally none of your business. You don’t possess the worldview or the perspective that he was interrogating so there was no possibility that you could have satisfied him with any answers you gave.
Since you hijacked his inquiry, I think I’ll hijack your defense as well. Fair’s fair and all that…
1. So, why are they defending homosexuality? What value does it represent to them?
2. I think it is you who are ignoring what the Bible says. Jesus, who incidentally was present and active as God when Moses received those commandments, told the Jews much later that some of the commands they received from Moses was, in his words, “because of the hardness of their hearts”. In other words, God accounted for their stubbornness when he gave or permitted some of Moses’ laws. Thus, those laws were subject to change as they themselves changed.
3. This actually made no sense at all to me. As for what he said, Christians, to whom he was speaking incidentally, believe and understand the existence of spiritual beings called demons that can influence human behavior for the worse. It is part of our worldview that such beings can actively hijack a human mind and even body to perpetrate unnatural behavior. So, when we see behaviors that run counter to nature, we consider that it is possible that a demon or demons are involved. That is why you should have let those he was asking to answer, Rukia.
K. Rukia
Hey Od! Thanks for the advice but I’ll reply whomever I choose. Even though the questions were not directed at me, the comment was posted on a public forum so I’m allowed to make it my business and react. If you feel I have hijacked his inquiry, that’s your problem.
In response to you,
1. It might not have value to them personally, being heterosexual. But the fact that something does not affect you does not mean you shouldn’t defend the rights of other people. Homosexual people deserve equal treatment, and as a Christians supposedly advocate fairness, justice and unconditional love, I can see why heterosexual Christians would defend homosexuals.
2. I don’t get you. If the laws were subject to change as you say, then why is the law on homosexuality (which I am not even sure exists in the Bible) not subject to change?
3. I was being sarcastic, because the mention of demonic involvement seemed hyberbolic and ludicrous to me.
Od
I wasn’t saying that you had no right to answer any comment you like on TNC. I was saying that the questions were directed at a particular group of people. You should only seek to answer if you understood them and how they think. Your answers did not portray such an understanding. That was why I called it a hijacking. It’s impolite and counter-productive.
1. Again, you are speculating as to their reasons for defending homosexuality. These are reasons that you think Christians should have for wanting to defend homosexuality. They may not be their reasons.
Still, I’ll humor you. Christianity does not preach equal treatment for everyone. Fairness and justice are both Christian values. But not unconditional love. We believe that love should not be abused. If it is, then it may be withdrawn. So, nothing in Christian philosophy and values suggests that homosexuality should be defended.
Again, this proves your incompetence to speak for the people being questioned.
2. Because that law was not dependent on their stubbornness? When Jesus came he summed up the whole law in these two:
Love the Lord your God with all that you are and have;
and
Love your neighbor like he is you.
All the ceremonial stuff was thus rendered irrelevant. Also, it shrank the complex laws into simple compassion and sensibility and reverence. So it did not annul anything about homosexuality. Homosexuality is an insult to God and it leads to terrible use of other humans.
3. That just proves what I was saying about your incompetence to speak for the Christians being interrogated.
Ufuomaee
Hi @Od, I have to disagree with you when you say unconditional love is not a Christian value or teaching. It most certainly is. That is the love that God has for all of us, and the love that led Jesus to the Cross. Jesus also gave us the commandment to love one another AS HE LOVED US, that is unconditional… forgiving as many times in a day as we are offending…and even offering this love to those who hate us. Paul also teaches us that love hopes all things, endures all things, believes all things…and never fails. That is the love we are called to, and it is unconditional. It is the love that makes a man or a woman to overlook wrong in their marriage, even unfaithfulness, and forgive their spouse…until death separates them. That is what we are called to. We may not always walk in it, but when we stray…we must repent and resume walking in the light and in the love that Jesus showed us.
Love no doubt means something to a world that doesn’t know God. They judge love by their feelings, by politeness and by tolerance, and not by God’s standard – who is in fact the very definition of Love. We wouldn’t know what love is without God. Love is not always tolerant, and certainly doesn’t tolerate evil, but love is always understanding, compassionate and gracious. We don’t have to deny unconditional love to refute their false definitions of love. God is loving, even if people go to hell…because if I had rotten food in my fridge, I certainly wouldn’t keep it there. I would throw it out, for the sake of the food that is good. We don’t have to change God’s definition of love, we just have to love them, even when they accuse us of being unloving.
Stay blessed!
K. Rukia
Christianity does not preach equal treatment for everyone? Unconditional love is not a Christian value?
I’m incompetent to speak for Christians even though I wasn’t actually trying to speak for Christians?
Tired of this conversation. Have a nice weekend abeg.
Od
Rukia, I said you hijacked an inquiry that wasn’t meant for you. You said you would answer any comment you pleased. You answered questions directed at other people essentially putting words in their mouths then you say here that you weren’t speaking for them? Something doesn’t add up. Right up here in your comment, your retorts are still speaking for Christianity.
No, Rukia, unconditional love is not a Christian value. Love is given freely but it makes demands if it must be sustained. No, Rukia, Christianity does not preach equal treatment for everyone. It says that the righteous get one thing and the unrighteous get another. It says that the ignorantly unrighteous get one thing and the brazen unrighteous get another. Christianity holds justice sacred like that.
Have a good weekend yourself, Rukia. 🙂
Jag
This by far the best response to that comment!!!
No.3 Killed it for me! Thumbs man!!!
Nelo
Hmmm. ……truth is bitter. Thanks Ufuomae.
Ufuomaee
Thanks Nelo! I appreciate your comment 🙂
conspicuous
it amazes me tho that when saleint points are made to @k-rukia .. she doesnt reply.. hahahaha… rukia. u know the truth, u just like rebelling against it.. and its fine… different strokes for different folks. @od .. I love the way you respond.. brilliant.. if u ever write a book.. im buying it…. big ups man.
K. Rukia
I have a life outside the internet you know.
Ufuomaee
Hi Conspicuous, I’ve noticed it too… Thanks for dropping a comment 🙂
Vincii
@k-rukia you know you just judged me by calling me the worst christain..
I never called my self a saint. You need to read Romans very well I only said the truth in the Bible.
All human beings are terrible. We all know that the heart of man is desperately wicked yet God still loves us. When we become children of God, God sends the Holy Spirit To us to change us so that we can be just like him. There are so many things that we do out of ignorance and lack of understanding.. And this is where God’s grace comes in. I’m not a saint. I didn’t call anyone black o white. I only said that we need the Holy Spirit. And you claim to have read the Bible. Now please read the book of Romans very well.. And ask the holyspirit to help you. Don’t read it because you want to look for points to counter. Read it and ask God to give you understanding.
Have a nice day 🙂
K. Rukia
I owe you an apology, Vince. I’m sorry I spoke to you in that way, it wasn’t very nice and you didn’t deserve it. Sometimes I react impulsively and type things without taking a deep breath first.
Jediva
This is such a controversial topic and we would probably not reach a consensus. nonetheless, I would like to say and I believe strongly that homosexuality is a choice. I would like to share my story, would make it as brief as possible.
I had a best friend at the age of 5 and we were so close and couldn’t do without each other. At 10 she started touching me and we would kiss and all for long hours, I mean she was my best friend, I didn’t feel guilty but I knew it was wrong, cos we would hide whenever someone tries to come into the room, this went on for about 3 years until she relocated with her dad (parent were divorced). this went on for me somehow, maybe because I was already addicted or maybe because I felt I could have fun and not get pregnant, I did it with her younger sister too. Other times I would use a cloth when I was in the mood and no one to explore with (this is really embarrassing). it went on, until I was 17 and one day I found my sister doing same thing with a cloth. It got to me, it really did. I knew I had to stop, it wasn’t easy but God saw me through. what’s my point exactly? I practised this for close to 7 years and today am so attracted to men, I am very straight and the thought of touching another woman is so repulsive.
No one was created to be homosexual, lets be honest, something must have initiated the thought or behaviour. still it is a choice outside the Manufacturers plan, I would never choose it, you shouldn’t.
Ufuomaee
Thanks so much for sharing your story with us, Jediva! May God open their eyes and deliver those caught up in these perverse practices.
K. Rukia
Amen
Chiebuka
Contrary to your declaration “I would never choose it” you chose that lifestyle for a while, my dear. But you got out. A lot of others are trying hard too. Yes, sometimes there’s a trigger but not always. Some people are just homosexual and it’s hard to kick.
MIA
If homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so, then it means the slave masters were right. the bible encourages slavery. Leviticus 25:42-46. I am just saying. Can we give peace and love a chance? I am yet to see love that is wrong.
Ufuomaee
You won’t accept the Bible’s decree. You won’t accept Biological proof. You won’t accept the evidence of widespread epidemic (AIDS). What would be sufficient evidence for you to admit that homosexuality is not only unnatural, but selfish and wicked too?
Chiebuka
I want to believe that you read the Vicky Beeching story; how then do you still reach this conclusion?
Ufuomaee
Hi Chiebuka,
I read the story, and that is her experience…one account. It doesn’t stand for the millions of others. It is not enough to say homosexuality is not a choice, because she wasn’t cured of it. It remains a mystery, at least.
When we provide stories of those who have been cured, delivered or given up homosexuality, or even those who were forcefully made homosexual through child abuse, that doesn’t seem to make those in favour of it change their minds. Why do you think one story of a Christian woman’s struggle with homosexuality will change ours???
Cheers, Ufuoma.
Od
@ufuomaee, this: “Love is not always tolerant, and certainly doesn’t tolerate evil, but love is always understanding, compassionate and gracious” is actually the meaning of “love is not unconditional”.
The Bible does not teach us that God loves us no matter what. It teaches us that while we were sinners God loved us. His love came in spite of our sin because if it did not we could not be saved. But what did he do next? He demanded that we repent our sins and start learning righteousness. Otherwise, we would be cut off from him. The love which came without any recommendation from us will be withdrawn if we do not respond appropriately to it.
This is why grace is not license. 🙂
Ufuomaee
Hi @Od, I don’t want to argue with you, because we are on the same team… But I certainly think you are wrong about love.
The first thing is whether or not you believe GOD IS LOVE. If God is love, is He loving some or all of the time? Even when God passes judgment on the unrighteous and chastises or disciplines His children, He is still being loving, and He still loves them…whether they are rebellious sinners or ‘entitled’ brats. If we can agree that God is always loving, then we can agree on the second one.
The second one is that we care called to be PERFECT AS YOUR FATHER IS PERFECT. We are called to a higher love, that is not conditional – just like the love Jesus showed us on the Cross, while we were yet sinners.
You say that because Love is not always tolerant it isn’t unconditional… But love remains love, even when it is intolerant of evil, because love does not suffer evil to thrive! When we rebuke sinners and challenge believers in error, we haven’t dropped the baton of love…it is because of our love that we do those things!
Now the problem is that the world wants to change the meaning of love to something that it isn’t. They think that a loving parent will not restrict a child from doing wrong… They say that love must be tolerant even of what is blatantly evil. They treat love as a feeling, accompanied with niceness and not honesty. They think that when you stop feeling affectionate with someone, it is right to walk away from a marriage, because of your own happiness. Their love is useless!
My point is don’t change the meaning of real, unconditional love for the world’s version. Teach them true love and defend love until the death…because that is one thing God always does.
Od
Yes, Ufuoma, we are. That should never be in doubt.
Do you have an email I could reach you at? Or would you rather contact me? My email is jlk172003@yahoo.com. I’d rather we worked through the discussion there, if you don’t mind.
Ufuomaee
Hi @od
Our discussion inspired me to write three posts on love today! I hope people will take the time to read and be edified. They are “Unconditional Love”, “Love and Righteousness” and “Intimacy With God”.
Thanks for the inspiration 🙂
Od
I’m happy to be of use to you, Ufuoma. I’ve glanced at the posts and I like them. As Paul said, if in any matter we think otherwise than we should, the Lord will show it to us. Grace keep you, sis.
Pingback: Wisdom By Another Name | Grace and Truth
Sue_Hastings
Hi Ufuoma, i am inspired by your passion ans resilience on a controversial topic as this.?
Wanna be like u when i grow up.
Ufuomaee
Hi Sue! Thanks for lending your voice to the convo 🙂 I’m encouraged by your comment.
black_knight CFR
Lovely article. all types of sin are still sin irrespective of their gravity. Nevertheless, there are somethings that are abnormal. I’m strongly against homosexuality but I do not hate homosexuals. Really to show how abnormal it is, imagine everyone on planet earth was gay, would humanity survive? Also I believe homosexuality is sociological and psychologically induced… Also na only Christians dey comment on controversial topics like this on TNC. Where the Muslims dey?
Ufuomaee
Yes, I have no hate for homosexuals. I don’t understand it, because I know many of them are hurting and wouldn’t choose that lifestyle…but we can’t normalise it either.